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[47.14 --> 50.04]  Once again, hired.com slash gsparty.
[50.20 --> 51.40]  And now on to the show.
[57.22 --> 65.60]  Welcome to JS Party, a weekly celebration of JavaScript and the web.
[65.94 --> 70.90]  Tune in live on Fridays at 3 p.m. U.S. Eastern at changelog.com slash live.
[71.22 --> 73.40]  Join the community and Slack with us in real time.
[73.52 --> 75.28]  Head to changelog.com slash community.
[75.78 --> 76.42]  Follow us on Twitter.
[76.52 --> 78.14]  We're at jspartyfm.
[78.26 --> 79.52]  And now on to the show.
[79.52 --> 86.14]  We're going to do a different show today, which is we had some kerfuffles on scheduling.
[86.68 --> 90.50]  And we don't want to miss the show because we're all busy and we want to keep it rolling.
[90.74 --> 92.44]  So ask us anything.
[92.44 --> 99.22]  If you're on Twitter, if you're on some sort of social platform, if you're right here in Slack,
[100.04 --> 101.22]  drop a note in there.
[101.22 --> 106.92]  And I'm going to do my best to ask Rachel and Michael some questions about JavaScript,
[107.18 --> 108.88]  the web platform, what we're going, what we're doing.
[109.56 --> 113.82]  And, you know, Michael, maybe we can still talk about the ICO, which is unique.
[114.44 --> 116.44]  Is this the first of its kind, initial coin offering?
[117.30 --> 117.72]  No, no, no.
[117.74 --> 119.60]  There's been other ICOs for other cryptocurrencies.
[119.96 --> 123.22]  This is just, you know, one that's actually kind of related to JavaScript in the web
[123.22 --> 128.96]  because it's an attention token that's going to be in the Brave browser that relates to like your,
[128.96 --> 133.46]  it's like an, it's an alternative to advertising and does micropayments instead.
[133.96 --> 135.60]  How do we, can we mine it now?
[136.82 --> 137.44]  No, you can't.
[137.46 --> 140.08]  I don't, I don't think you can mine it that way.
[140.08 --> 151.06]  See, I didn't read the full thing that the headlines seemed to me as if Brave was generating funding through rather than IPO and ICO.
[151.50 --> 152.32]  Yeah, they did.
[152.50 --> 153.24]  Is that what's happening?
[153.78 --> 153.92]  Yeah.
[154.00 --> 157.14]  So, so what they did was they created a bunch of these coins.
[157.14 --> 160.98]  I'm not sure how many total, but they released some of them.
[161.24 --> 165.78]  And other companies have done a very similar thing where, you know, they want to get a coin onto the market.
[165.90 --> 171.46]  So they mine a bunch of it and then they say, okay, we're going to offer this to the, like this set amount of this coin to the public.
[172.36 --> 176.14]  And then those go like on the open market and people buy them.
[176.14 --> 182.62]  And then now, now that those coins are in the open market, there's additional kind of speculation and trading on top of it.
[182.78 --> 184.78]  So they made 35 million.
[184.96 --> 190.32]  I think that the current market cap on the coins that went out is like a little under a hundred million.
[190.48 --> 195.56]  So the people that bought them actually, you know, have, I think, tripled the value so far.
[195.56 --> 203.92]  So is this becoming a way for people to go about raising funding in a different way or is this unique to Brave or how they operate them in a browser?
[204.80 --> 206.46]  So it does a couple of things, right?
[206.50 --> 212.16]  So when you have certain types of these coins, you want to get a bunch of value injected into the network.
[212.16 --> 216.58]  So you do a big public offering and then you've kind of bootstrapped a bunch of value around it.
[216.58 --> 221.12]  Or you can, you know, give a bunch of these coins out and then get that money.
[221.62 --> 226.56]  Now, the way that that's treated by the IRS is like just straight up capital gains.
[227.50 --> 231.06]  So you're going to get a pretty big tax penalty unless you do.
[231.40 --> 240.72]  And I imagine that everybody who's raising more than a couple million dollars on these ICOs is probably doing this where they're filing some kind of company offshore to avoid some of those tax penalties.
[242.12 --> 242.56]  Yeah.
[242.56 --> 248.04]  Do we want this to be in the pre-show or somehow meld this into the ending?
[248.06 --> 249.78]  I thought we were, we're live.
[249.88 --> 250.30]  We're live.
[250.40 --> 250.88]  Okay, fine.
[250.94 --> 251.24]  We're live.
[251.54 --> 252.16]  Put that in.
[252.50 --> 252.86]  Yeah.
[252.98 --> 253.86]  You can just edit it.
[253.86 --> 254.40]  We'll do it live.
[254.76 --> 255.78]  We'll do it live.
[255.86 --> 259.70]  So listeners of this particular JS party, it's a different type of show.
[260.14 --> 261.38]  Normally you never hear me.
[261.80 --> 271.12]  I'm just behind the scenes hoping that everything goes well and keeping the mice on the spinners.
[271.12 --> 273.26]  You know, creating electricity and stuff.
[273.44 --> 274.88]  What does that mean?
[275.64 --> 277.24]  You know, the mouse race.
[278.08 --> 278.38]  I don't.
[278.84 --> 280.18]  I was thinking fidget spinners.
[280.28 --> 281.44]  I thought this was like a millennial.
[281.56 --> 281.84]  Yeah, me too.
[282.28 --> 282.76]  Well, sure.
[282.92 --> 285.02]  The mice are standing on the fidget spinners.
[285.92 --> 291.16]  And that's creating electromagnetism, which turns into electricity, powers the house.
[291.36 --> 292.36]  Who does that?
[292.86 --> 293.94]  Well, some people do.
[293.96 --> 294.74]  Is that a real thing?
[294.74 --> 298.22]  Uh, where do they do that at?
[298.26 --> 304.74]  They did that in, uh, in neighbors to the movie.
[306.40 --> 310.66]  Remember they were trying to like take down the sorority and they pulled the power and
[310.66 --> 315.64]  it kept going because they had all the minions in the other room riding like, you know, unicycles
[315.64 --> 318.16]  or whatever, uh, stationary bikes.
[318.16 --> 320.20]  We definitely are keeping this in.
[320.44 --> 321.20]  This has to be it.
[321.50 --> 323.44]  That's how we power the house, you know?
[324.76 --> 331.06]  So this, but back to this, uh, this unique thing, uh, basic attention token.
[332.60 --> 335.28]  It's so foreign to me, you know, Ethereum based.
[335.42 --> 336.34]  We've done shows on this.
[336.44 --> 337.16]  I get it.
[337.44 --> 338.50]  I understand blockchain.
[338.70 --> 340.26]  I understand cryptocurrencies.
[340.26 --> 343.72]  I keep hearing more and more that they're coming of age.
[343.82 --> 348.14]  They're about to be mainstream where they are mainstream and just there's a small mainstream
[348.14 --> 353.84]  who knows what's the state like where, where are coin in general being used?
[353.90 --> 355.84]  How, what is the state of this ecosystem?
[356.52 --> 357.08]  Cryptocurrency.
[357.32 --> 357.56]  The dark web.
[358.24 --> 359.08]  The dark web.
[359.30 --> 359.48]  I have no idea.
[360.04 --> 360.52]  I don't know.
[360.58 --> 361.98]  I don't know anything about this.
[362.12 --> 366.70]  I know that like libertarians like Bitcoin and that's about it.
[366.70 --> 372.88]  Um, I mean, yeah, it depends on what you mean by that, right?
[372.96 --> 375.64]  Like, so there's a bunch of different coins now.
[376.00 --> 384.00]  Um, I think that the primary ones right now are probably Bitcoin, Ethereum and Litecoin.
[384.68 --> 386.26]  Um, Dogecoin.
[387.22 --> 390.40]  Dogecoin is, is not, I think a major player at this point.
[390.52 --> 392.52]  I have 75,000.
[393.14 --> 393.92]  They better.
[394.40 --> 395.68]  You have 75,000 Dogecoins?
[396.14 --> 396.46]  Yeah.
[396.46 --> 398.16]  Those are probably worth something actually.
[398.78 --> 399.70]  No, it's not.
[399.80 --> 401.58]  It's worth like $20 maybe.
[401.78 --> 406.90]  It's the only, I like, it was the only one that compelled me to like figure out how to
[406.90 --> 409.36]  do mining and I was like, cool.
[409.52 --> 411.18]  And it's worth nothing.
[411.74 --> 412.62]  Oh, you mined them.
[412.72 --> 412.84]  Wow.
[412.92 --> 413.12]  Okay.
[413.40 --> 415.04]  Um, I mean, I've bought some of them.
[415.30 --> 420.20]  Um, I think honestly, like if you're just out with friends and you want to transfer some
[420.20 --> 425.10]  money between people, um, it is surprisingly the easiest way to do that currently.
[425.10 --> 428.94]  Like if you just have, um, uh, what's the app called?
[429.00 --> 429.88]  Let me look at my phone.
[430.22 --> 430.62]  Coinbase.
[430.76 --> 434.08]  If you just have like Coinbase on your phone, you can just use your phones to transfer money.
[434.52 --> 437.08]  Um, and it's, it's like almost instantaneous.
[437.22 --> 441.22]  Bitcoin takes like 10 minutes, but it's, you know, it's, it's actually just kind of a better
[441.22 --> 442.46]  way to trade around money like that.
[442.46 --> 447.74]  And you're seeing more and more services set up support for accepting Bitcoin as currency.
[447.74 --> 450.72]  So, um, Bitcoin and, and some other currencies as well.
[450.72 --> 457.00]  So what I was talking about before with, um, if you pull out it out in cash, you, you've
[457.00 --> 458.46]  made capital gains on that money.
[458.78 --> 464.00]  Um, so there's a lot of incentive to just keep the money being exchanged for other value
[464.00 --> 464.98]  inside of the system.
[464.98 --> 470.94]  Um, because it's not being treated as a currency, which is a weird thing to think about, which
[470.94 --> 475.20]  is like by not treating it as a currency, you've actually, um, inflated people's use
[475.20 --> 478.36]  of the currency in a way because they don't want to play the capital gains.
[478.62 --> 482.52]  So what you're saying is when you pull it out, so you take it from, you take it out in cash,
[482.52 --> 482.94]  right?
[482.98 --> 487.90]  When you turn it into your denomination, U S whatever, Deutsch, whatever, wherever you're
[487.90 --> 491.44]  at, whatever your currency is, you turn it into what we consider maybe real dollars.
[491.44 --> 496.24]  I don't know, real, real cash at that point, you could be subject to capital gains.
[496.70 --> 497.10]  Yes.
[497.22 --> 497.46]  Yes.
[497.80 --> 502.36]  And like, and I mean, and, and this also translates if you transfer it to other property and sell
[502.36 --> 502.86]  that property.
[502.86 --> 506.52]  So there actually is a company right now doing mortgages in Bitcoin.
[506.94 --> 513.64]  And, um, if you, but, but if you buy that house, so here, say you put $5 into Bitcoin really
[513.64 --> 516.14]  early on, that's worth a half a million dollars.
[516.14 --> 522.22]  And so you buy a half a million dollar house with Bitcoin, um, with, with that mortgage.
[522.62 --> 525.30]  Um, you're good until you sell that house.
[525.30 --> 529.14]  And then when you sell that house, you owe capital gains from the $5 that you were initially
[529.14 --> 532.02]  put into, into the, the currency.
[533.02 --> 533.50]  Right.
[533.90 --> 536.20]  You defer it by buying property.
[536.40 --> 536.84]  Yeah.
[536.92 --> 539.42]  I mean, you, yeah, you defer it by exchanging property.
[539.42 --> 545.98]  Um, so the way, the way that, that the SEC looks at, um, and, and the IRS looks at, um,
[546.44 --> 548.08]  cryptocurrencies is that they are property.
[548.20 --> 550.12]  So they're digital property that you own.
[550.46 --> 554.48]  They are, they, they fall under, uh, the laws about beanie babies and things like that.
[554.48 --> 554.98]  That makes sense.
[555.12 --> 558.36]  So that's a good way to put it because there's still coins.
[558.36 --> 562.62]  You know, when you think about the name, the term, they're meant to signify currency of
[562.62 --> 566.46]  some sort, some sort of worth, some sort of value, but they're obviously not physical.
[566.46 --> 568.42]  You know, you can't touch your Bitcoin.
[569.48 --> 574.88]  Maybe you could, if you're really lucky, but I don't know, you know, but then they're just
[574.88 --> 579.42]  simply things you happen to take ownership in Michael, you own yours.
[579.50 --> 580.84]  I own mine, right.
[580.88 --> 581.66]  Do you own yours?
[581.92 --> 586.82]  And once you use those, when you, once you exchange that value for something else, it,
[586.88 --> 588.10]  uh, it translates.
[588.54 --> 594.50]  So it's like stock in a way too, cause you buy it at a certain price and it may be worth
[594.50 --> 596.44]  something more or potentially less.
[597.12 --> 597.48]  Right.
[597.52 --> 600.82]  But so stocks are regulated quite a bit differently and looked at a little bit.
[600.96 --> 601.20]  Sure.
[601.36 --> 602.96]  But the concept of the main, that's what I mean by that.
[603.00 --> 606.94]  Not so much the full on regulations of stocks, just more like the principle of you buy to
[606.94 --> 611.06]  the certain rates, let's say a dollar and a month later it goes up and it's now a dollar
[611.06 --> 611.36]  50.
[611.36 --> 614.98]  So the value could go up or could go down based on when you came in.
[615.60 --> 617.70]  This also happens to your currency in your pocket.
[618.04 --> 618.64]  There's inflation.
[619.00 --> 623.64]  There's, there's currency exchanges and how valuable your currency is compared to other currencies.
[623.64 --> 628.88]  Like I've, I've run into this a lot because I have a stack of money from other countries
[628.88 --> 630.88]  so that when I land in those countries, I can spend it.
[631.34 --> 635.58]  And this has not been a very good last five years to be holding currency, not in dollars.
[635.66 --> 637.20]  So that's kind of sucked.
[637.76 --> 637.98]  Anyway.
[637.98 --> 643.36]  Um, so for blockchains, there's this whole side of things that's like currency speculation
[643.36 --> 649.82]  and, and, and it's, it's a lot of, uh, sensibly gambling, like fun gambling, um, a lot of money
[649.82 --> 654.64]  flowing into it and gambling on, you know, this, these exponential increases in the value
[654.64 --> 655.48]  of these digital coins.
[655.84 --> 661.54]  Um, but the underlying technology can solve a lot of problems outside of just currency
[661.54 --> 662.04]  exchange.
[662.56 --> 662.96]  Right.
[662.96 --> 666.70]  And, and, and outside of just like, you know, things that we need the currency to do.
[666.80 --> 673.42]  So there's an element of transparency and provability that without a centralized owner
[673.42 --> 676.38]  that is really important for a bunch of different use cases.
[676.52 --> 681.98]  And so the use case that brave is going after with this basic attention token is essentially
[681.98 --> 682.74]  the ad market.
[682.86 --> 688.60]  So if you've ever read a bunch about the advertising market, especially online, there's a huge amount
[688.60 --> 691.36]  of fraud, huge amount of kind of fake clicks.
[691.36 --> 696.94]  There's everything from click farms to, you know, people just generating, you know, crazy
[696.94 --> 700.98]  wild numbers for, you know, what has and has not happened on, on different services and
[700.98 --> 701.14]  whatnot.
[701.32 --> 707.04]  So you really want to, if you want to try to solve that, you need something that is provable
[707.04 --> 711.46]  and has a lot of these elements of transparency and provability kind of baked in.
[712.02 --> 715.04]  So, um, what they're looking at is this basic attention token.
[715.44 --> 719.68]  And so this is, you know, a provable way to show that you spent some attention on something.
[719.68 --> 724.82]  And so that could be used to prove that you, um, saw an advertisement or saw some content.
[725.16 --> 729.08]  Or I think what they're, they're probably betting on a little bit more than that is,
[729.20 --> 735.52]  um, you can prove that people spent time on a site and then you can inject capital and
[735.52 --> 738.02]  money into where you spend your attention.
[738.02 --> 740.52]  And that can be doled out as micro payments to those sites.
[740.52 --> 743.86]  So if you've used a brave browser that they already have this feature baked in where you
[743.86 --> 745.14]  can do these micro payments.
[745.14 --> 751.16]  Um, and so you can say, look, like I don't want to deal with advertising on websites.
[751.16 --> 753.88]  Like I hate all that kind of stuff, but I do want to support content creators.
[753.88 --> 757.46]  So I'm going to pour 20 bucks a month into wherever I spend my time.
[757.68 --> 761.52]  And what happens is that brave tracks that in a way that is anonymized and protects your
[761.52 --> 761.88]  privacy.
[762.24 --> 766.26]  Um, but also like allows them to kind of dole out some of that to, to all these different
[766.26 --> 767.52]  places where you're spending your time.
[768.10 --> 769.04]  That's pretty interesting.
[769.04 --> 771.78]  That ends up being a lot more money.
[772.08 --> 777.12]  I think for the users that put money into that system, if you're only putting $5, um,
[777.18 --> 780.70]  the sites that you go to are going to end up making more money than they would from advertising
[780.70 --> 781.14]  on that.
[781.20 --> 786.26]  I mean, advertising, you have to reach hundreds of thousands of people in order to make a
[786.26 --> 787.16]  menial amount of money.
[787.16 --> 788.22]  So, yeah.
[788.48 --> 792.24]  And, um, the upcoming JS party.
[792.24 --> 793.88]  So we're, we're on that show now.
[793.88 --> 800.44]  Um, but episode 15, which, uh, includes Kyle Simpson, he mentioned something about where
[800.44 --> 801.92]  we place our value at.
[801.94 --> 808.48]  And we talk a bit about this subject, not in particular, but like how, how users spend
[808.48 --> 809.30]  their time on the web.
[809.36 --> 815.42]  You know, the, the, the conversation was basically the chasm between native applications and web
[815.42 --> 820.68]  applications and how we often put them together when maybe they should be divided because of
[820.68 --> 827.56]  things like bandwidth and whatnot, inherent costs that just simply are maybe basically
[827.56 --> 830.72]  attained to, to bandwidth and the cost of bandwidth.
[830.72 --> 835.06]  So people in the U S don't typically have that issue because we have unlimited everything
[835.06 --> 839.46]  basically, but in other parts of the world, there's metered, you know, metered access to
[839.46 --> 839.76]  the internet.
[839.98 --> 843.16]  So the weight of things get a lot more expensive.
[843.16 --> 844.98]  So that was a conversation on there.
[845.02 --> 849.46]  And then also on a request for commencement, you probably remember this with Brennan and I
[849.46 --> 852.32]  talking about that, you know, he's the founder of brave.
[852.42 --> 854.98]  So it would make sense to have this conversation with him back on that show.
[855.06 --> 861.24]  But we talked a bit about the early days of funding the web and he talked a bit about how
[861.24 --> 863.76]  it was all advertising driven.
[863.94 --> 868.94]  The browsers were, you know, I'm summarizing to some degree from my memory, but basically
[868.94 --> 875.30]  the history of browsers had this speckled history of, of advertising paying for a lot
[875.30 --> 875.80]  of things.
[876.34 --> 883.00]  And it's kind of interesting to see now where he's at and this basic attention token being
[883.00 --> 887.58]  a thing where you can say, like you just said, put 20 bucks in and that money goes to where
[887.58 --> 888.50]  you spend your time on the internet.
[889.30 --> 889.70]  Yeah.
[889.78 --> 893.86]  I mean, I think what he's really dealing with and he's had to confront pretty head on is
[893.86 --> 902.02]  that having this indirect market to fund browsers and the web through advertising has, has also
[902.02 --> 905.44]  created a huge market for fraud and malware and a bunch of other stuff.
[905.64 --> 909.74]  And, um, it's, it's only gotten worse and everything that we've tried to do to try to,
[909.74 --> 911.90]  you know, make it a little better, hasn't really worked.
[912.40 --> 917.38]  Um, and so he's, you know, brave is pretty proactively blocking tracking and blocking
[917.38 --> 918.14]  advertisements.
[918.76 --> 922.72]  Um, and just saying like, no, we're going to go with a different way to try to fund the
[922.72 --> 925.98]  web here and, and remove a lot of this, uh, malware and stuff.
[925.98 --> 931.04]  A lot of people are using Patreon or patron, Patreon, mostly content creators.
[931.28 --> 940.98]  And what bums me out is seeing crazily enthusiastic content creators pointing to, and basically begging
[940.98 --> 945.36]  their, their listeners or their audience or whatever to say, support me.
[945.36 --> 949.92]  And you go to their Patreon and they're getting like 13 bucks a month, right?
[949.92 --> 954.56]  Like nothing upsets me more than seeing sure.
[954.66 --> 956.66]  Maybe it's amateur content, so to speak.
[956.68 --> 961.76]  And I say that loosely because it's not like mainstream media content, for example, like
[961.76 --> 964.34]  highly polished 16, 20 people behind it.
[964.42 --> 968.66]  It's one person, two people, maybe, but there's somebody who's out there doing something on
[968.66 --> 970.20]  the web that's of value to others.
[970.58 --> 975.06]  And they're essentially asking their audience to support it.
[975.26 --> 978.18]  And you go to that Patreon page and it's like 13 bucks a month.
[978.18 --> 979.90]  Like that's, that's horrible.
[980.34 --> 981.00]  It's not working.
[982.12 --> 987.82]  Well, I think that when you look at how to fund content and we look at this a lot when
[987.82 --> 991.40]  we're talking about how to fund open source and how to have a sustainability strategy for
[991.40 --> 995.80]  open source, but you know, the, the world of content and art is, is, you know, as big
[995.80 --> 1001.64]  and dynamic, there's, there's not one way to fund things and there's not content that,
[1001.70 --> 1006.60]  you know, necessarily appeals to, you know, every way of funding, right?
[1006.60 --> 1011.22]  So it works really well for certain kinds of artists that have a really personal following.
[1011.68 --> 1016.12]  Um, uh, and you know, a small but dedicated following, I'd say.
[1016.44 --> 1020.10]  Um, I think that if you were making a couple million dollars a month on Patreon, you would
[1020.10 --> 1024.12]  probably stop getting new people putting in money regardless of how much the content.
[1024.50 --> 1026.32]  13 bucks though, Mike, that's like horrible.
[1026.86 --> 1031.00]  I know, but there's also a lot of people making like a living, um, on Patreon as well.
[1031.00 --> 1031.42]  There are.
[1031.58 --> 1035.92]  Um, and, and those people that are making 13, you know, there may be a reason for that,
[1035.96 --> 1036.20]  right?
[1036.20 --> 1040.52]  Like there, there may be a perception that that person is, is already being rewarded in
[1040.52 --> 1043.58]  some other way or other people are actually paying for that content.
[1043.58 --> 1046.98]  And like, I've seen people on Patreon do this where like they, they make content and then
[1046.98 --> 1049.18]  the people that give them money on Patreon don't even get that content.
[1049.26 --> 1051.58]  They have to buy it through like iTunes or something.
[1051.58 --> 1056.46]  Um, and so like when you have that kind of stuff going on, like you, you know, people
[1056.46 --> 1057.42]  are just less incentivized.
[1057.52 --> 1059.62]  So I think it's going to work for some people and not for others.
[1059.62 --> 1063.68]  And to, to broaden it back out to blockchain in general, I think that there, you know,
[1063.70 --> 1068.22]  wherever you have, you know, transactions that you need to, to make transparent and you
[1068.22 --> 1071.68]  need to have some provability, there's a bunch of different use cases for that.
[1072.00 --> 1074.00]  Um, and a bunch of different things that we can do there.
[1074.32 --> 1079.14]  Uh, of course, you know, this, this being the tech industry, there's been a huge flood
[1079.14 --> 1083.16]  of money from venture capital and from, and a lot of hype from kind of everywhere that,
[1083.48 --> 1085.38]  you know, the blockchain is the solution to everything.
[1085.38 --> 1090.52]  And so if you have a startup and an idea and you add the word blockchain or AI to it, you
[1090.52 --> 1091.76]  will just get more money right now.
[1091.88 --> 1094.36]  And so there's a lot of, it's very, very overhyped.
[1094.56 --> 1099.20]  Um, but you know, there are a bunch of new things that we can do that we couldn't do before.
[1099.60 --> 1103.78]  And eventually those are the things that are really going to kind of shape new products
[1103.78 --> 1104.86]  and services, stuff like that.
[1105.24 --> 1106.98]  Let's, let's get off of blockchain for a while.
[1107.16 --> 1107.34]  Yeah.
[1107.34 --> 1108.08]  Let's, let's, let's move on.
[1108.08 --> 1113.42]  I'll end that by just saying my, my thought was that, was that if this basic attention
[1113.42 --> 1122.08]  token is a, a chance to push the web in a way where your attention speaks for itself and
[1122.08 --> 1130.54]  pays for itself, so to speak, is a better direction of a model hypothetically than a beggar slash
[1130.54 --> 1132.22]  will you support me model?
[1133.08 --> 1133.34]  Right.
[1137.34 --> 1147.28]  This episode is brought to you by TopTile, a global network of top freelance software developers,
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[1214.04 --> 1215.14]  And back to the show.
[1232.24 --> 1235.50]  We've got some robotics topics to talk about.
[1235.50 --> 1239.74]  Now, Rachel, I understand that you're a purveyor of robotics.
[1239.90 --> 1240.86]  You like this stuff.
[1241.28 --> 1241.90]  I dabble.
[1242.12 --> 1242.70]  You dabble.
[1243.54 --> 1245.52]  Sometimes you might even have fun doing it.
[1245.56 --> 1246.04]  What do you think?
[1246.78 --> 1247.12]  Yeah.
[1247.66 --> 1250.90]  So I saw the question that was asked.
[1251.38 --> 1258.58]  And so the reason that I use JavaScript in robotics is because I know JavaScript.
[1258.58 --> 1269.68]  I don't know if I need to get into something that is, you know, a little bit more specific
[1269.68 --> 1270.24]  to see.
[1270.38 --> 1273.28]  I can work my way around it, but I can't write it from scratch.
[1273.76 --> 1279.54]  So basically, like, the reason that I think JavaScript is good for robotics and embedded
[1279.54 --> 1284.70]  hardware is because of the community that is involved that is available to the NodeBots
[1284.70 --> 1285.18]  community.
[1286.00 --> 1288.52]  The Johnny Five site is amazing.
[1288.64 --> 1289.92]  The documentation is great.
[1290.42 --> 1296.30]  When I say robotics, too, I don't mean, like, very intense, giant things.
[1296.62 --> 1299.34]  This is just, like, hobbyist-level stuff.
[1299.34 --> 1305.14]  So, like, small little, you know, the sumo bots that can push each other out of circles
[1305.14 --> 1306.48]  or play soccer.
[1307.14 --> 1314.50]  And it's not like we're not changing the world, like, inventing anything that's going
[1314.50 --> 1319.62]  to, like, revolutionize the way that modern machinery is made with JavaScript robotics,
[1319.76 --> 1320.34]  I don't think.
[1320.34 --> 1327.72]  But I think that it's a really interesting way to help people that are wanting to learn
[1327.72 --> 1329.56]  how to write Node.
[1330.18 --> 1336.48]  And, you know, maybe they're just not grasping the way that it works with building a single-page
[1336.48 --> 1337.08]  application.
[1337.80 --> 1343.74]  And I really like the way that the tangibility of, you know, even just taking a breadboard
[1343.74 --> 1349.20]  with LEDs and hooking it up to an Arduino and being able to write JavaScript, you can get
[1349.20 --> 1350.02]  stuff to happen.
[1350.96 --> 1357.98]  Not to mention, like, using LEDs for visualizing different types of loops is really a great
[1357.98 --> 1359.48]  way to help understand it.
[1359.56 --> 1363.20]  It helped me understand how that kind of stuff was done.
[1363.88 --> 1369.98]  In terms of, like, performance-based stuff, obviously, you know, C is going to be faster
[1369.98 --> 1372.02]  than Node stuff.
[1372.02 --> 1379.68]  But I feel like all of the stuff that I've built hasn't really had any issues with the
[1379.68 --> 1387.34]  runtime or any, like, lag of whenever I, you know, do whatever action A triggers action B.
[1387.64 --> 1394.14]  So, I mean, the performance differences aren't really big enough to make a difference for
[1394.14 --> 1397.70]  that, at least the hobby-level stuff that I do with it.
[1397.70 --> 1397.82]  Yeah.
[1398.28 --> 1402.84]  Well, and also, I think that there's a little bit of a difference between IoT and robotics,
[1403.10 --> 1403.28]  right?
[1403.38 --> 1404.16]  Yeah, definitely.
[1404.84 --> 1407.94]  Like, a lot of the IoT stuff, like, oh, yeah, you do have these use cases where you need
[1407.94 --> 1411.14]  it to be super low power because it's got to be on a little battery for a year.
[1411.42 --> 1415.50]  But with robotics, like, you need, you're going to be pretty high power anyway because you're
[1415.50 --> 1418.18]  doing these pretty big movements and moving around heavy things.
[1418.18 --> 1422.18]  And so that means that you're going to have a higher-powered onboard device and you can run,
[1422.28 --> 1425.48]  you know, Node just as well as anything else that runs on that little embedded system.
[1425.48 --> 1426.14]  So, yep.
[1426.24 --> 1430.56]  It would seem to me, too, that going the route of C versus going the route of JavaScript,
[1430.84 --> 1434.08]  one might be a higher slash lower barrier to entry.
[1434.24 --> 1438.52]  Like, you might have to have a lot of systems knowledge, maybe a lot of, like, just deeper
[1438.52 --> 1442.44]  knowledge about programming that C would require, whereas JavaScript, you can sort of, like,
[1442.46 --> 1443.16]  run that anywhere.
[1443.24 --> 1444.68]  It's a little bit easier to get involved.
[1445.54 --> 1449.32]  Dare I even say maybe a slightly larger, more welcoming community, so it's a little easier
[1449.32 --> 1451.62]  to find your place to fit in.
[1452.72 --> 1452.92]  Yeah.
[1453.14 --> 1457.52]  That seems like a pretty standard thing to think about as well.
[1458.56 --> 1463.44]  I think, I mean, so because I came from lower-level languages and I watched kind of higher-level
[1463.44 --> 1470.16]  languages take over and really, like, get a lot more people using them than lower-level
[1470.16 --> 1470.56]  languages.
[1470.56 --> 1474.50]  It's always hilarious to me when people from higher-level languages start to get into lower-level
[1474.50 --> 1480.46]  languages, because they really ignore a lot of the things that higher-level languages
[1480.46 --> 1481.34]  do for you.
[1481.86 --> 1486.42]  Like, it's just so easy to make mistakes in C. Mistakes that, like, will still be compiled
[1486.42 --> 1491.66]  and your program will still run, but will, you know, introduce a security vulnerability
[1491.66 --> 1492.98]  or a memory leak.
[1493.98 --> 1499.68]  It's very hard to make good, reliable programs in CMC++.
[1499.68 --> 1506.60]  And that's why we build higher-order languages, so that you can stay within some extra boundaries
[1506.60 --> 1511.00]  that will make it not just easier to program, but also easier to not make mistakes.
[1511.80 --> 1518.48]  Yeah, I feel like a lot of the libraries that allow people to get started with NodeBots,
[1519.02 --> 1523.86]  like, takes the mistake-making part of the process out of it.
[1523.94 --> 1527.00]  Like, the mistakes that you're going to make when you're doing it is more likely going to
[1527.00 --> 1531.48]  be your wiring than the programs that you're writing, because so much of the sensors and
[1531.48 --> 1534.16]  modules that you're using already have the code written.
[1534.36 --> 1538.36]  You can pretty much just, like, copy and paste a ton of it, and you're ready to go.
[1538.48 --> 1543.72]  And then you just have to, you know, learn a little bit about electricity and how circuits
[1543.72 --> 1548.28]  work, and then you can start combining things to make a lot more dynamic stuff.
[1548.28 --> 1555.58]  Can we rewind a bit and talk a bit about the chasm or the difference between learning JavaScript
[1555.58 --> 1560.56]  in a single-page web application scenario versus, let's say, robotics, where you mentioned
[1560.56 --> 1563.64]  interesting things around loops and blinking lights?
[1563.84 --> 1565.22]  Why is it different?
[1565.34 --> 1566.48]  What's different about it?
[1567.32 --> 1570.14]  For me, it's like a learning style thing.
[1570.50 --> 1576.48]  Some people are okay with grasping a concept, and some people just really need to visualize
[1576.48 --> 1579.60]  what they're doing in order to understand it.
[1580.66 --> 1588.24]  For me, like, I'm a super visual learner, and I think that's why I was so taken to, you
[1588.24 --> 1593.56]  know, the JavaScript robotics stuff, because I could, I mean, I've been programming, this
[1593.56 --> 1600.02]  is like, I've been programming for, I don't know, almost half my life, and I'm a shitty
[1600.02 --> 1600.62]  programmer.
[1601.02 --> 1604.30]  I don't know, like, data structures.
[1604.30 --> 1605.94]  I don't understand those things.
[1606.70 --> 1611.16]  I just know what I know from repetition and building stuff.
[1611.96 --> 1616.42]  And I don't know, it's just nice when you can touch something that you've built versus
[1616.42 --> 1621.26]  just, like, looking, I guess you could touch a computer screen, but it's a little bit different.
[1622.66 --> 1623.56]  I don't know.
[1624.30 --> 1629.42]  Yeah, I think a more interesting question is actually, like, what is similar about, like,
[1629.54 --> 1632.04]  UI programming in the browser to robotics in JavaScript?
[1632.04 --> 1635.46]  Because I think there's actually more similarities than differences.
[1636.14 --> 1639.74]  And when you look at a lot of the languages that people have built specifically for IoT,
[1640.18 --> 1645.68]  they're taking a lot of these, like, threading patterns that we have for, basically, people
[1645.68 --> 1648.68]  have written for desktop programming and operating system programming and a lot of low-level
[1648.68 --> 1649.00]  stuff.
[1649.52 --> 1653.54]  And it's interesting that JavaScript in the browser didn't go that direction.
[1653.68 --> 1656.00]  They went the direction of events.
[1656.00 --> 1662.70]  You know, we talk a lot about asynchronous programming now, but just basic DOM events,
[1662.78 --> 1662.90]  right?
[1662.98 --> 1664.68]  Like, when you click on something, something happens.
[1665.66 --> 1667.32]  That's how robotics work.
[1667.62 --> 1670.14]  And that's how JavaScript robotics work.
[1670.34 --> 1672.08]  And it's actually very similar.
[1672.74 --> 1677.70]  And I feel like UI people actually have an easier time onboarding than people that are used
[1677.70 --> 1681.42]  to, like, you know, threaded C++ programming that try to move into this evented environment.
[1681.42 --> 1684.74]  It depends on, like, the onboarding, obviously.
[1685.10 --> 1690.96]  Like, if you can set somebody up with good documentation, then yeah, that's good.
[1691.54 --> 1697.34]  I feel like even five years ago, there was still not great documentation for a ton of,
[1697.34 --> 1699.28]  like, front-end UI stuff.
[1699.98 --> 1702.14]  At least I didn't have a good time with it.
[1702.14 --> 1709.92]  So if you're getting into JavaScript robotics or JavaScript hardware stuff in general, there's
[1709.92 --> 1711.98]  a lot of libraries out there, like everything in NPM.
[1712.44 --> 1716.04]  There's maybe even more embedded systems that support this.
[1716.74 --> 1719.26]  It's like the Atari 2600 days of computing.
[1719.42 --> 1721.84]  Everybody's got their own, you know, specialized board.
[1723.50 --> 1725.40]  You mess with a lot of these, Rachel.
[1725.50 --> 1730.68]  Like, what do you recommend that people pick up as a first introductory set of hardware?
[1730.68 --> 1732.60]  And what libraries would you point them at?
[1733.10 --> 1740.70]  I think that if you don't know anything about hardware at all and you're wanting to get started,
[1740.90 --> 1746.62]  the best thing that I would suggest is the Johnny 5 starter kit that comes with a TESL.
[1746.74 --> 1747.96]  You can get it on SparkFun.
[1747.96 --> 1756.38]  I mean, the benefit of the TESL versus an Arduino is, like, the Arduino you're going to have to flash
[1756.38 --> 1757.28]  with custom firmware.
[1757.50 --> 1762.80]  And if it's your first time using that kind of board, you might not necessarily know how to do that.
[1762.86 --> 1765.76]  But the TESL just comes and it's ready to go, essentially.
[1765.98 --> 1771.90]  You've got, you just plug it into your computer and you can either, you know, run the code from your machine
[1771.90 --> 1775.48]  the same way that you do with your Arduino and other boards.
[1775.60 --> 1780.22]  Or you can just push the code up to the TESL so it runs on the actual board,
[1780.32 --> 1785.90]  which is more similar to, like, the boards that have embedded systems on them,
[1786.44 --> 1787.50]  which is really great.
[1787.74 --> 1790.98]  So, plus, it's ready for Node out of the bat.
[1791.32 --> 1793.86]  And the projects that I think it gives you to build are,
[1794.30 --> 1795.86]  there's, like, a little robot one.
[1795.92 --> 1797.08]  It comes with DC motors.
[1797.08 --> 1802.16]  I honestly just get the kits now because, like, whenever you go to conferences or something
[1802.16 --> 1804.86]  and there's people giving stuff away for swag,
[1804.94 --> 1808.82]  I just break everything apart into individual components I can use later.
[1809.00 --> 1814.08]  But there's a whole bunch of documentation that comes with it that helps you get up and running.
[1814.62 --> 1817.32]  The other libraries that you can use are,
[1818.06 --> 1824.56]  Brian Hughes has a library that allows you to use JavaScript for the Raspberry Pi,
[1824.56 --> 1829.58]  which I only recently started using a Raspberry Pi.
[1829.96 --> 1835.72]  The new Model 3 makes it a lot easier to be able to use without having to, you know,
[1835.80 --> 1838.28]  plug it into your router or SSH into it
[1838.28 --> 1843.20]  because you can use something called Pi Bakery to start your card up.
[1843.38 --> 1849.38]  So it already has the Raspbian operating system on it.
[1849.38 --> 1852.18]  And then you can configure this thing called VNC Viewer,
[1852.30 --> 1858.58]  which lets you essentially, it's like a virtual machine on your computer
[1858.58 --> 1861.24]  that you're actually logged into the Raspberry Pi with.
[1861.28 --> 1864.20]  So you see the whole Linux operating system.
[1864.20 --> 1875.04]  And I actually just built this cool gallery out of a 32 by 32 LED matrix using a Raspberry Pi.
[1875.04 --> 1879.00]  And I'm running Node on the Pi.
[1879.18 --> 1884.30]  And I'm also running Node on a single page app that's hosted on Azure.
[1884.92 --> 1888.04]  And the way that it works is you...
[1888.56 --> 1892.74]  Okay, so there's not a lot of good Node libraries for the LED matrix.
[1893.08 --> 1898.60]  So all I did was install the C library that already works for displaying art on the matrix.
[1898.82 --> 1903.40]  And instead, I have the Node application listening over the IoT hub on Azure.
[1903.40 --> 1908.20]  And it just runs the C shell commands whenever it gets the message to display art,
[1908.32 --> 1909.98]  which is kind of hacky and cheating.
[1910.30 --> 1915.68]  But there's a lot of ways that you can jump in and use Node with a lot of things.
[1916.44 --> 1917.62]  I love those hacks.
[1918.12 --> 1919.96]  Those are the best hacks. I love that stuff.
[1919.96 --> 1925.02]  It's like, I kind of inadvertently built the world's hackiest Node library
[1925.02 --> 1926.94]  for displaying art on an LED matrix.
[1927.64 --> 1929.76]  So you can too.
[1930.62 --> 1931.70]  What else do we got?
[1931.70 --> 1935.76]  So the point of an Ask Us Anything kind of show is people asking questions.
[1935.86 --> 1940.42]  But I guess Michael and I might have some questions, which we've already shared a few.
[1940.70 --> 1945.10]  You can ask us questions not about JavaScript as long as they're safe for work.
[1945.32 --> 1945.76]  That's true.
[1946.34 --> 1948.46]  We have many, many interests.
[1949.28 --> 1952.24]  I'm taking a break from bread making, so no bread making questions.
[1952.26 --> 1954.12]  I was just going to say, ask Michael about bread.
[1954.64 --> 1956.56]  No, no. Got to take a break from that.
[1956.56 --> 1962.52]  I can tell you all about ketosis, but I can't tell you about bread right now.
[1962.98 --> 1963.22]  Ketosis.
[1964.14 --> 1965.74]  There's a question about IDEs.
[1966.52 --> 1968.68]  So I've never used IDEs.
[1968.82 --> 1970.78]  I've always just used straightforward editors.
[1970.78 --> 1976.36]  But I've always been a little bit jealous of some of the features that nice IDEs have.
[1977.50 --> 1982.10]  And eventually, I made my way to Visual Studio Code.
[1982.54 --> 1986.90]  And Visual Studio Code is great because it is an editor, but it has a lot of the features
[1986.90 --> 1988.54]  that I've always wanted from IDEs.
[1988.60 --> 1990.08]  So I use code now.
[1990.62 --> 1993.28]  I also use code, but I work at Microsoft.
[1993.28 --> 1995.82]  Did you use it before when you worked there?
[1996.56 --> 2000.68]  No, I used Sublime Text.
[2002.56 --> 2005.12]  But honestly, it doesn't really feel that different.
[2006.46 --> 2017.02]  Yeah, I actually use Visual Studio Code with a bunch of syntax plugins for JavaScript and
[2017.02 --> 2019.22]  node debugging stuff.
[2019.22 --> 2022.34]  It's great because the library...
[2022.34 --> 2025.50]  I'm on my Mac right now as I type this, so I can't even open...
[2025.50 --> 2028.50]  Well, I don't have it installed on here because I just use this for the podcast.
[2028.84 --> 2029.60]  But...
[2029.60 --> 2031.72]  Whoa, that was a weird noise.
[2032.12 --> 2033.06]  It's really good.
[2033.40 --> 2034.22]  It doesn't...
[2034.92 --> 2036.28]  I've seen...
[2036.28 --> 2038.74]  So Michael's looking for a new computer right now.
[2039.34 --> 2041.50]  And he's asking people,
[2041.74 --> 2044.66]  you know, what should I get?
[2045.10 --> 2046.40]  Well, he just wants a laptop.
[2046.40 --> 2052.52]  But the reason I bring this up is because he said it on Facebook and some guy in his comments
[2052.52 --> 2056.32]  was like, ugh, dev work on a Windows machine.
[2056.86 --> 2059.90]  And I just wanted to be like, have you even tried?
[2060.12 --> 2062.44]  Because, I don't know.
[2062.52 --> 2066.46]  It's just so nice, especially with Git for...
[2066.46 --> 2068.38]  I don't know how to say this word correctly.
[2068.58 --> 2069.50]  Is it Ubuntu?
[2069.76 --> 2070.18]  Ubuntu?
[2070.82 --> 2071.00]  Ubuntu.
[2071.00 --> 2071.32]  Whatever.
[2071.90 --> 2072.06]  Yeah.
[2072.20 --> 2076.96]  The bash for that on Windows is fantastic.
[2077.52 --> 2081.16]  I have it running inside of Hyper, which is great.
[2081.70 --> 2087.54]  And so, like, my terminal and my code editor are beautiful and they run great and they're fast.
[2088.82 --> 2089.06]  Yeah.
[2089.74 --> 2091.06]  I think, like...
[2091.06 --> 2093.94]  Yeah, that was a weird comment, especially because, like...
[2093.94 --> 2099.24]  I mean, we have statistics on this from NPM, but there are more Windows users of NPM and Node.js
[2099.24 --> 2100.54]  than there are Mac users.
[2101.02 --> 2101.34]  So, just...
[2101.34 --> 2101.66]  Really?
[2101.90 --> 2103.02]  Just marinate on that for a minute.
[2103.14 --> 2103.30]  Yeah.
[2103.46 --> 2104.30]  That's very surprising.
[2104.74 --> 2107.98]  I think that they're a little bit less vocal on Twitter.
[2108.56 --> 2110.96]  But, yeah, there's a lot of Windows.
[2111.10 --> 2112.72]  There's a lot of people that do development on Windows.
[2112.72 --> 2114.10]  Like, a very huge amount.
[2114.70 --> 2119.08]  And one of the secrets to Node's growth, even early on, was having really quality Windows support.
[2119.08 --> 2125.50]  Which, like, I don't think that people appreciate how different it is than, say, Python or Ruby or a lot of these other languages.
[2125.76 --> 2126.84]  Like, it's really first class.
[2127.74 --> 2130.14]  But before we get off of IDEs, I did want to just...
[2130.14 --> 2136.78]  I want to get a list of your extensions, Rachel, because I just found some new interesting extensions that I'm really happy about.
[2137.32 --> 2137.72]  Oh!
[2138.26 --> 2144.22]  So, you can put at installed into the extensions thing, and that'll show you the ones you have installed.
[2144.60 --> 2147.50]  So, I have the JS standard linter installed.
[2147.50 --> 2153.34]  I have NPM IntelliSense, so that'll actually do auto-completion for the NPM packages that you have.
[2154.48 --> 2156.68]  And, obviously, like, the regular kind of IntelliSense.
[2157.80 --> 2160.44]  Also, search node modules, I think, is really cool.
[2160.92 --> 2166.06]  It actually, like, searches your node modules directory for auto-completion as well.
[2166.84 --> 2167.98]  I have a...
[2167.98 --> 2168.96]  Sorry, you're not done.
[2169.08 --> 2169.42]  Go ahead.
[2169.48 --> 2169.68]  Go ahead.
[2170.00 --> 2170.28]  Go ahead.
[2170.38 --> 2170.58]  Go ahead.
[2170.58 --> 2182.74]  I have this Markdown Preview one that's, like, super nice because I write a lot of documentation for the projects that I do, and it lets me preview it right in the window, which is cool.
[2182.88 --> 2189.50]  I don't have to, like, open it up or push it up before I check out what it looks like.
[2190.14 --> 2190.88]  Yeah, what a pain, right?
[2190.92 --> 2194.66]  To ship to GitHub or something like that just to get a preview of your Markdown file.
[2195.86 --> 2196.02]  No.
[2196.32 --> 2197.04]  That's not how you do it.
[2197.04 --> 2199.96]  How do I see what my settings are, Michael?
[2200.74 --> 2202.46]  Or how do I see which extensions I have?
[2202.86 --> 2210.04]  So, when you click on that extensions thing in the left sidebar, at installed, we'll show you your installed if you put that in the search.
[2210.98 --> 2215.16]  Another one that I just installed recently that I'm loving is called Virgin Lens.
[2216.62 --> 2217.94]  It's so webby and great.
[2217.94 --> 2222.22]  So, basically, when you pull up your package JSON, it looks at all of the depths that you have.
[2222.22 --> 2231.78]  And on top of the depth says if there's newer versions, like, within this range, if there are newer versions, if there's, like, a newer current version that you're not getting because of your package thing.
[2232.08 --> 2236.52]  And each of those are just links, and when you click them, it updates the version in your package JSON.
[2236.78 --> 2237.98]  It's super nice.
[2237.98 --> 2242.54]  So, I have a lot.
[2242.80 --> 2243.40]  Well, not a lot.
[2243.58 --> 2257.48]  I have, since I also do a bunch of, like, styling stuff, I have color highlight, which whenever you type hex colors in your browser, it shows you what the color is around it, which is kind of nice.
[2258.80 --> 2260.26]  I thought that was default.
[2261.10 --> 2262.40]  I thought that was just on by default.
[2262.88 --> 2263.08]  Okay.
[2263.80 --> 2264.82]  I don't think so.
[2264.82 --> 2270.32]  I have the Dracula official theme installed because it's my favorite theme.
[2271.04 --> 2272.36]  It's so nice.
[2272.36 --> 2273.06]  I thought that it's official.
[2274.24 --> 2276.62]  Well, it's because people try and use the name.
[2276.74 --> 2278.62]  It's, like, a really popular theme.
[2278.96 --> 2279.86]  It's really pretty.
[2280.44 --> 2281.30]  It's nice.
[2281.70 --> 2285.36]  I have an HTML snippets one, which is similar to, like, Emmett.
[2285.36 --> 2296.16]  And then I have, like, SAS and Python and ESLint and also Babel ES6, ES7 syntax coloring one.
[2297.62 --> 2298.72]  And that's it.
[2298.78 --> 2302.04]  I should probably actually delete all these and start new.
[2303.56 --> 2304.84]  But, yeah, those are mine.
[2304.84 --> 2310.58]  I actually talked to Zenor Rocha about some backstory on Dracula, which is pretty interesting.
[2311.54 --> 2312.08]  Oh, cool.
[2312.34 --> 2312.60]  Yeah.
[2312.66 --> 2319.66]  On episode 248 of the Change Log, we talked to him about sort of like his open source lessons learned.
[2319.88 --> 2319.96]  Right.
[2319.96 --> 2326.70]  Like, his first introduction to open source was this jQuery boilerplate project.
[2326.84 --> 2328.06]  And so this is back in the day.
[2328.64 --> 2337.82]  And the very first, I guess, pull request was one that deleted all of his code and said start again because it was crap, basically.
[2338.22 --> 2340.88]  So it was a horrible introduction to open source, basically.
[2340.88 --> 2340.96]  Exactly.
[2341.84 --> 2343.04]  We talked through that.
[2343.12 --> 2353.12]  And then finally we got to this scenario where he was talking about just how he had, you know, his passion for making an editor look good.
[2353.44 --> 2357.92]  And he come up with this theme, Dracula, and how it's just blown up since then.
[2358.02 --> 2362.76]  Like, he started off with one and now it's been, you know, transplanted to everything, basically.
[2362.86 --> 2363.04]  Yeah.
[2363.04 --> 2363.64]  Vim, anything.
[2364.28 --> 2364.46]  Yeah.
[2364.52 --> 2370.02]  If you go to the Dracula site, it tells you all of the different places you can get it.
[2370.40 --> 2370.80]  Yeah.
[2371.54 --> 2374.50]  Dracula theme.com is the URL.
[2374.84 --> 2379.88]  So if you're tracking that on a listener, if you're in the Slack, boom, there it is.
[2380.60 --> 2382.10]  That's a pretty interesting project.
[2382.20 --> 2388.40]  And it's funny that you did say official because there are many, many imitators, not often duplicators.
[2388.78 --> 2400.40]  I also recently switched my font for programming to operator mono, which is not cheap, but it's beautiful.
[2400.40 --> 2402.14]  And it's really easy on the eyes.
[2403.10 --> 2412.30]  Back to the, I guess, somewhat of a surprise for developers on Windows to have an easy time.
[2412.54 --> 2415.18]  Wasn't there a time, though, where it was harder for them?
[2415.18 --> 2418.80]  I know maybe in the Ruby space, at least there was.
[2418.80 --> 2423.96]  And this is like late 2008, 2009 timeframe, 2006.
[2424.18 --> 2426.46]  It was like not easy to get set up.
[2426.46 --> 2431.76]  It really depends on the language that you write and what you needed to do.
[2431.76 --> 2435.36]  Because I've always had a Mac and a PC.
[2435.72 --> 2438.24]  And I've always programmed on both of them.
[2438.44 --> 2438.74]  Easily.
[2439.04 --> 2439.44]  No problem.
[2439.44 --> 2439.68]  Yeah.
[2440.00 --> 2440.48]  Easily.
[2440.58 --> 2441.12]  No problem.
[2441.12 --> 2445.90]  I mean, maybe the stuff on my PC wasn't as attractive looking.
[2446.12 --> 2452.52]  And it was a little bit harder to keep .files equal across operating systems.
[2452.86 --> 2456.80]  But in the past few years, I haven't felt that way at all.
[2457.02 --> 2462.22]  I mean, also, I mean, I have the access to people that work on VS Code.
[2462.52 --> 2469.10]  So if I can't figure something out or if I want it to look better, I can message them and be like, help, please.
[2469.10 --> 2469.30]  Please.
[2470.30 --> 2474.62]  What do you think's changed for Windows, the platform?
[2475.24 --> 2478.78]  I think it's 100% Microsoft being more involved with open source.
[2479.02 --> 2480.80]  VS Code is completely open source.
[2481.00 --> 2481.88]  It's written in TypeScript.
[2482.30 --> 2486.38]  So it's really easy for people to make custom stuff for it.
[2486.78 --> 2487.44]  That's my opinion.
[2487.58 --> 2488.94]  Michael might have a better one.
[2489.02 --> 2489.72]  What do you think, Michael?
[2490.64 --> 2497.70]  I think that there's a larger transformation at Microsoft where they're moving from a platform company to a product company again.
[2497.70 --> 2500.20]  So early Microsoft made products.
[2500.36 --> 2501.80]  They made languages for other people's computers.
[2502.08 --> 2505.54]  They made spreadsheets and Word applications.
[2505.92 --> 2509.30]  And then at some point, they gained a monopoly over the operating system.
[2509.40 --> 2515.14]  And they started to just kind of get lazy with product and strong arm everybody into just being on their platform.
[2515.14 --> 2521.18]  And now that they've lost those monopolies in platform, they've turned everything around.
[2521.26 --> 2525.58]  And Santi's really turned it all around to be a product company.
[2526.04 --> 2528.98]  And now to be a product company, you have to make things that people love.
[2530.02 --> 2534.76]  And I'm continually surprised by the things that I love from Microsoft.
[2534.76 --> 2537.56]  I use Outlook on iOS right now.
[2537.70 --> 2539.38]  It's great, actually.
[2539.60 --> 2539.82]  Really?
[2539.92 --> 2541.76]  It's a really good mobile email.
[2541.84 --> 2542.64]  Yeah, it's crazy.
[2543.22 --> 2547.14]  The fact that I'm using a Visual Studio editor still blows my mind.
[2547.40 --> 2554.10]  If you told 1999 Michael that that would happen and that they wouldn't be using Vim, he'd punch you in the face.
[2555.88 --> 2556.96]  I'm so violent.
[2556.96 --> 2560.52]  Oh, 1999 Michael had no scruples.
[2561.42 --> 2563.24]  So, anyway.
[2564.44 --> 2565.18]  That's funny.
[2565.34 --> 2566.00]  Yeah, yeah.
[2566.08 --> 2571.74]  I kind of feel the same way because my transition to Mac came from Windows, obviously, which would make sense.
[2571.94 --> 2575.18]  And it was from a place where I just couldn't afford.
[2575.72 --> 2579.06]  And even today, I still can't afford the Mac machines.
[2579.18 --> 2580.58]  They're still crazy expensive.
[2581.46 --> 2583.54]  And so it comes from, one, an economic standpoint.
[2584.08 --> 2586.12]  Surface Pros are not cheap.
[2586.12 --> 2588.12]  I haven't compared the prices.
[2588.80 --> 2590.34]  They're really nice hardware, though, too.
[2590.48 --> 2592.08]  I mean, that's really surprising.
[2592.20 --> 2595.56]  I haven't seen Microsoft make hardware that good, like, basically ever.
[2596.96 --> 2601.60]  It's funny because I have heard complaints about the Surface Pros, but all of the complaints have been in software.
[2601.94 --> 2604.42]  Or they've been, like, operating system things that people don't like about Windows.
[2604.70 --> 2607.58]  I haven't heard anyone, not a single person, complain about the hardware.
[2608.34 --> 2613.12]  Well, that's the thing, though, is that I think Microsoft has sort of, like, kept this bad name or this bruise.
[2613.12 --> 2619.16]  They got punched in the face as the 1999 Michael would have done.
[2619.38 --> 2622.32]  Punched Microsoft in the face because it just wasn't adding up.
[2622.82 --> 2627.50]  And they were walking around with a fake black eye or something like that because it's not really there anymore.
[2627.66 --> 2629.12]  It's sort of done.
[2629.12 --> 2630.94]  I bought my mic just now, by the way.
[2631.52 --> 2632.28]  That was a lot of rumble.
[2634.22 --> 2635.24]  It's just not there anymore.
[2635.34 --> 2643.26]  So, like, they've changed, but everyone keeps the previous opinion about them, even though it may not be warranted.
[2643.30 --> 2645.70]  Like, the person in the Facebook comment you mentioned, you know, like that.
[2645.70 --> 2654.52]  Well, I know that, like, one of the things that people, like, harp on Microsoft a lot for is everyone's, like, blue screen of death.
[2654.64 --> 2655.52]  It's so horrible.
[2655.68 --> 2660.84]  And, like, people love to take pictures of stuff out in the wild that have the blue screen of death on.
[2660.96 --> 2663.36]  And they can just be like, ha ha, look at Microsoft.
[2663.36 --> 2680.26]  Except I don't think that people realize that the reason there's a blue screen of death there is more often than not the reason because since they've made it so accessible for people to build their own custom stuff for Windows,
[2680.66 --> 2685.78]  the blue screen of death is Windows as an operating system telling you that there is a problem.
[2686.38 --> 2691.24]  And it's usually because of software that you're using that wasn't built by Microsoft.
[2691.24 --> 2693.92]  Microsoft. So, it's, like, doing you a favor.
[2695.76 --> 2701.60]  Yeah, I mean, also, like, if there is a blue screen, I think that they stopped doing that, like, 10 years ago in their operating system.
[2701.88 --> 2705.30]  So, these dumb kiosks have 10-year-old operating systems.
[2705.46 --> 2706.74]  Of course, they're awful.
[2707.40 --> 2709.14]  Of course, they wrote awful software on top of it.
[2709.14 --> 2711.26]  I've also gotten the kernel panic on a Mac before.
[2711.26 --> 2717.24]  So, it's not like it's happened maybe a small handful of times my whole entire use of a Mac ever.
[2717.34 --> 2718.98]  But I've seen that, too, you know.
[2718.98 --> 2722.82]  Also, kernel panics on Linux are, like, just part of using Linux.
[2723.12 --> 2726.44]  It's not like this is, like, a solved problem there.
[2726.58 --> 2726.88]  Right.
[2727.74 --> 2741.14]  So, what I hear you saying is that if you haven't in a while, revisit your opinion on Microsoft or Windows or any of their new devices out there as a platform for developers.
[2741.14 --> 2743.56]  I mean, obviously, I'm going to say yes.
[2744.24 --> 2744.44]  But.
[2744.78 --> 2749.62]  Well, you know, say it from, you know, the true heart of Rachel versus the I work from Microsoft Rachel.
[2750.14 --> 2751.78]  I mean, I don't bullshit.
[2752.20 --> 2755.22]  So, if it wasn't good, I wouldn't say try it.
[2756.12 --> 2756.74]  Well, there you go.
[2756.74 --> 2768.20]  And I know that the people that are working on this stuff that are the tools for the developers are, like, legitimately super into feedback and wanting to know what the community wants.
[2768.20 --> 2775.22]  And since it's since there's, like, repositories on GitHub for all this stuff, if there's something you don't like, make an issue.
[2775.42 --> 2777.76]  Like, let it be known to the people that are working on it.
[2778.16 --> 2787.64]  They would much rather hear from you and, like, official channels than read about somebody being like, I hate VS Code on Twitter or something, because that's not going to help.
[2787.64 --> 2798.78]  We actually linked out to something on the new stack over the weekend in our weekly email about Microsoft's transition, basically, over these years.
[2798.82 --> 2801.20]  And we've kind of covered that to quite a degree.
[2801.44 --> 2808.22]  I can remember talking to R&S and a couple others at Nune Interactive recently.
[2808.56 --> 2811.78]  And these are, like, 10-year veterans at Microsoft, right?
[2811.78 --> 2817.86]  They've been there for a while, enough to see the two different sides that others may assume might be there.
[2818.32 --> 2829.78]  The side where you said before, Michael, where they're, and I think you said it too, Rachel, where their focus is on developers, their focus is on open source, their focus is on products versus a platform.
[2830.38 --> 2839.12]  And you can see that transition happening not only on the outside as what we get from them, but also the transition on the inside from employees.
[2839.12 --> 2844.78]  And I remember Arnish saying, he was like, it was Gaurav, actually, Gaurav Seth.
[2845.24 --> 2850.10]  He said, I've been there 11 years, and the last few years have been the best years ever.
[2850.54 --> 2859.08]  And I don't want to put words in his mouth, but he seemed to be coming from a place where I may not have been here much longer if it didn't change.
[2859.08 --> 2861.18]  That seemed to be the sentiment.
[2861.36 --> 2862.38]  He didn't say that, though.
[2863.06 --> 2875.26]  But it was like, Microsoft has changed so much for me as a developer to change to make me enjoy my job, allow me to do cool stuff with Chakra Core and fun stuff with Node and do stuff in the community.
[2875.44 --> 2877.24]  Whereas before, it was never like that.
[2878.10 --> 2878.26]  Yeah.
[2879.66 --> 2881.24]  I've heard that from a bunch of people.
[2882.10 --> 2882.90]  More questions!
[2884.24 --> 2884.60]  Yeah.
[2884.60 --> 2888.76]  System76 Lemur right now, talking more about hardware.
[2889.20 --> 2891.72]  That's from Peter Benjamin.
[2893.34 --> 2896.42]  What is a System76 Lemur?
[2897.26 --> 2900.16]  It's Linux laptops.
[2900.82 --> 2901.52]  Oh, interesting.
[2902.74 --> 2907.94]  That Intel Core i7 is the chipset that they use in the new Surface Pro as well.
[2908.72 --> 2909.08]  Cool.
[2909.08 --> 2910.74]  Um, okay.
[2911.02 --> 2914.70]  If you go to any conference where MS has a presence, you definitely get that vibe.
[2914.78 --> 2915.46]  Oh, that's a comment.
[2915.54 --> 2916.16]  That's not a question.
[2916.32 --> 2916.72]  That's not a comment.
[2916.72 --> 2919.64]  Yeah, that's why there's not a question mark at the end.
[2919.74 --> 2920.06]  Yeah.
[2920.56 --> 2921.92]  Where's the question marks?
[2922.58 --> 2923.32]  All right, everybody.
[2923.68 --> 2925.26]  You gotta ask us more questions.
[2925.88 --> 2928.96]  I gotta go in four minutes, so...
[2928.96 --> 2929.98]  Ooh, four minutes.
[2930.22 --> 2931.60]  Let's do random picks.
[2931.98 --> 2935.14]  I'm going to a party in a 70-room Gothic mansion.
[2935.70 --> 2936.78]  Must be there on time.
[2937.58 --> 2937.84]  Yeah.
[2937.84 --> 2939.38]  Must eat in advance.
[2940.18 --> 2941.62]  I do need to eat in advance.
[2941.62 --> 2942.42]  Makeup's gonna be perfect.
[2943.20 --> 2943.68]  Obviously.
[2944.14 --> 2945.20]  On point, right?
[2945.36 --> 2947.98]  I hate the phrase on point so much.
[2948.32 --> 2949.22]  Not on point?
[2951.36 --> 2954.64]  What's your version of on point?
[2955.98 --> 2956.50]  Spectacular?
[2957.98 --> 2958.58]  Rad.
[2959.08 --> 2959.52]  I don't know.
[2959.72 --> 2959.84]  Rad.
[2959.92 --> 2960.48]  Okay, rad.
[2961.14 --> 2961.32]  Yeah.
[2961.58 --> 2962.50]  Makeup's gotta be rad.
[2962.98 --> 2964.48]  I forgot we're back in the 80s again.
[2965.28 --> 2966.92]  I'm always in the 80s.
[2966.92 --> 2968.16]  Man, I grew up in the 80s, okay?
[2968.26 --> 2969.76]  So, I want to go back so bad.
[2969.84 --> 2971.10]  If I hear 80s music...
[2971.10 --> 2971.50]  Oh, yeah.
[2971.50 --> 2972.76]  There was a question about...
[2972.76 --> 2973.10]  You know what?
[2973.14 --> 2977.76]  There was a question about server-side rendering earlier that Michael can answer, and then I'll
[2977.76 --> 2978.18]  leave.
[2979.38 --> 2980.44]  Um, hold on.
[2980.44 --> 2983.16]  I don't do any server-side rendering, so I'm actually really bad at this.
[2983.22 --> 2984.62]  I think that's really an Alex question.
[2984.98 --> 2987.82]  Like, we need to get Alex on to talk about that kind of stuff.
[2988.48 --> 2989.94]  Oh, they wanted to know about...
[2989.94 --> 2990.82]  Well, where is Alex?
[2990.88 --> 2991.66]  Is he home yet?
[2993.02 --> 2993.72]  Probably not.
[2994.18 --> 2995.16]  He's probably listening.
[2995.54 --> 2996.28]  On his drive.
[2996.36 --> 2998.62]  Neither of us know anything about...
[2998.62 --> 3001.42]  Well, Michael probably knows something about server-side rendering.
[3001.42 --> 3005.66]  Um, I don't.
[3006.66 --> 3010.60]  How about we do two minutes of random picks, and Rich, you can begin.
[3010.88 --> 3011.46]  What do you think?
[3012.22 --> 3018.38]  Uh, my random pick is actually going to be, um, a CFP that's open that people should apply
[3018.38 --> 3020.30]  to, because it seems neat.
[3020.68 --> 3021.74]  And it's in Tokyo.
[3022.54 --> 3025.08]  Uh, so it's NodeFest Tokyo.
[3025.58 --> 3026.42]  And, yeah.
[3026.88 --> 3027.22]  Apply.
[3027.86 --> 3028.30]  I don't know.
[3029.16 --> 3029.68]  What else?
[3030.22 --> 3030.82]  I've been there.
[3030.92 --> 3031.46]  It's great.
[3031.78 --> 3032.46]  Everybody should go.
[3032.88 --> 3033.84]  I've also been...
[3033.84 --> 3036.38]  Well, you've been to NodeFest Tokyo, or you've been to Tokyo?
[3036.96 --> 3038.00]  No, I've been to NodeFest Tokyo.
[3038.10 --> 3039.90]  I went to the first two or three.
[3040.16 --> 3040.66]  Something like that.
[3040.66 --> 3040.88]  Nice.
[3040.88 --> 3043.32]  It's one of the oldest Node conferences, actually.
[3043.48 --> 3043.80]  People don't realize it.
[3043.80 --> 3044.68]  I did not know that.
[3045.30 --> 3047.28]  But, yeah, it started the same year that I started NodeConf.
[3048.50 --> 3048.86]  Wow.
[3050.18 --> 3050.58]  Cool.
[3050.96 --> 3054.14]  Um, I guess the other thing, I actually was looking at...
[3054.14 --> 3059.70]  There's this cool procedural generation subreddit where they just talk about procedural generation.
[3059.98 --> 3060.88]  Hold on, I'm going to burp.
[3061.96 --> 3064.16]  I muted myself for the benefit of you all.
[3064.16 --> 3070.70]  Um, so there's this library that I just linked in the channel called Too Loud that, uh,
[3070.70 --> 3072.70]  lets you do noise functions.
[3073.42 --> 3077.48]  Um, there's like Perlin noise and Simplex noise and a bunch of other stuff.
[3077.48 --> 3084.62]  And it's really good for generating tile sets or any other kind of, uh, random procedural stuff that you need.
[3084.66 --> 3086.06]  And it makes like canvas tiles.
[3086.30 --> 3087.50]  It's pretty cool.
[3088.10 --> 3088.60]  Cool.
[3089.04 --> 3089.70]  Really cool.
[3090.24 --> 3091.26]  And now I'm leaving.
[3091.26 --> 3092.26]  Okay.
[3093.88 --> 3094.36]  Bye, Rachel.
[3094.84 --> 3095.88]  Have a good weekend.
[3096.10 --> 3096.38]  Bye.
[3097.32 --> 3097.58]  Bye.
[3098.58 --> 3099.52]  What about you, Michael?
[3100.78 --> 3102.60]  Um, let me think.
[3102.84 --> 3103.32]  Uh, okay.
[3103.50 --> 3106.76]  So there's a project called Leaflet.js.
[3107.16 --> 3112.48]  It's a pretty amazing JavaScript, um, library for doing everything you ever wanted to do with maps.
[3112.48 --> 3119.10]  So embedding maps that work on mobile and desktop, all the interactions, putting points in all that cool stuff.
[3119.10 --> 3131.90]  Um, there's this great company, uh, Mapzen that's, uh, like a, a sort of cheaper and, and, um, slightly easier to use, uh, alternative to Mapbox for embedding maps and things and interacting with them.
[3131.90 --> 3134.84]  And, uh, they use this library as their, their base.
[3134.92 --> 3140.04]  And then they, they provide a bunch of tiles and services for doing, um, like smart routing and stuff.
[3140.14 --> 3149.24]  So I've been building a little, you know, app in my spare time for fun with that library, uh, and was just really, really impressed with how far along this Leaflet.js thing is.
[3149.32 --> 3152.62]  Like it, it does literally everything.
[3152.92 --> 3157.34]  Um, and I mean, for, for a task this huge, you kind of have to be a big framework.
[3157.34 --> 3166.58]  Um, but as far as, you know, big frameworks and, and big, big piles of code go, um, it's, it's really actually easy to use and not very, uh, obtuse.
[3167.90 --> 3168.38]  Yeah.
[3169.02 --> 3174.00]  Well, my, uh, my pick will be something to tease up some future content for us.
[3174.00 --> 3178.72]  So there was a blog post on the Heroku blog talking about the rise of Kotlin.
[3178.94 --> 3185.62]  And we just recorded an episode this week, which will go out in about three weeks because we have a small backlog.
[3185.62 --> 3189.54]  And, uh, I'm pretty excited about this.
[3189.58 --> 3191.34]  It's a, it was, it was a fun conversation.
[3191.96 --> 3195.76]  My son's crying in the background cause it's, uh, it's time.
[3196.60 --> 3209.32]  And, but, uh, but the, the, the fun thing about Kotlin is it's very interesting in terms of how it's come about from a, a third party product company, so to speak.
[3209.32 --> 3212.50]  Like it comes from JetBrains and we talked about ID, IDEs earlier.
[3212.94 --> 3215.76]  They're like the experts of creating IDEs.
[3216.02 --> 3222.10]  And so rather than Kotlin become being like Swift is to Apple, Kotlin is to Google.
[3222.24 --> 3223.08]  It's not that way.
[3223.12 --> 3225.50]  It's, it's actually JetBrains, a third party.
[3225.50 --> 3236.26]  So it's a really interesting how this language came about really interesting about how it's solving some interesting things on the JVM and the powers giving to Android developers to have an alternative to, to Java.
[3236.42 --> 3237.72]  And, uh, it's a fun show.
[3237.84 --> 3239.94]  So that is a good article.
[3240.06 --> 3245.36]  I'll link it in the show notes to go and check out and prep for our show coming up on Kotlin.
[3246.02 --> 3246.50]  Awesome.
[3247.02 --> 3247.68]  All right.
[3248.16 --> 3249.04]  Good stuff.
[3249.04 --> 3255.96]  And with that, that is the ask me anything random live show of JS party.
[3256.08 --> 3258.16]  This was probably the most random show we've done so far.
[3258.28 --> 3259.92]  So thanks for tuning in.
[3259.92 --> 3262.76]  And for those in Slack, thanks for hanging out.
[3265.40 --> 3266.14]  All right.
[3266.20 --> 3268.78]  Thank you for tuning into JS party this week.
[3268.94 --> 3272.80]  Thanks also to our sponsors, top tile century and hired.
[3272.96 --> 3277.34]  Also thanks to fastly, our bandwidth partner at the facet.com to learn more.
[3277.34 --> 3280.42]  We host everything we do on Linode servers.
[3280.54 --> 3282.54]  Head to lino.com slash change log.
[3282.70 --> 3283.56]  Check them out.
[3283.66 --> 3284.46]  Support the show.
[3284.54 --> 3288.66]  This show is produced by myself, Adam Stachowiak and edited by Jonathan Youngblood.
[3288.82 --> 3293.22]  And the awesome music you've been hearing is produced by the mysterious break master cylinder.
[3293.70 --> 3296.98]  We do the show live every Friday at 3 PM.
[3297.02 --> 3298.84]  U S Eastern noon Pacific.
[3298.84 --> 3304.90]  So join us at change law.com slash live Slack with us in real time.
[3304.90 --> 3306.72]  Head to change law.com slash community.
[3306.96 --> 3308.22]  We'll see you again next week.
[3308.54 --> 3309.34]  Thanks for listening.
[3309.34 --> 3339.32]  We'll see you again next week.
[3339.82 --> 3339.84]  Bye.
[3346.76 --> 3347.38]  Bye.
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[3367.04 --> 3369.12]  Bye.